P.S. Keep comments civil and respectful OR ELSE (just kidding about the or else)!
Thursday, June 4, 2009
I Think They Said It Better
Wow, maybe I should cash in now with my six boys! Ha, ha, on a more serious note, I found this blog with a post on circumcision where I found that the parents chose not to circumcise their boys for the same reasons that we did (I have one more reason though). I am posting it because I really like the research she did to back her decision. I didn't find nearly as much, and when I mentioned our choice not to circumcise, I got alot of not-so-nice comments. My point in posting this is not to put up a divide or say that my choice is better than yours...... I just would like the sterotyping that an uncircumcised penis in not as clean, or poses more health risks, or is not as pleasurable to stop.
P.S. Keep comments civil and respectful OR ELSE (just kidding about the or else)!
P.S. Keep comments civil and respectful OR ELSE (just kidding about the or else)!
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30 inspiring thoughts:
I guess it's just a personal choice. My hubby was circumsized at 12, and my dad was in his 50's. Both had issues that lead to the surgery and I'd say both wish it would have been done as a baby. Our family history leans us in favor of circumsision (I know I spelled that wrong). Others who have not had the problems we have might not see it as a choice and unnecessary.
My boys are not circumcised.or rather were not done at birth. Because of some complications , one of my boys..(will not mention which one) had to be done at age 5.
I still stand by our decision not to get them circumcised though.
Not a fun choice to make...but a parent's choice nonetheless. My dad had it done at 45, and my brother had it done at 48... Both would have rather had it done as babies! :) But, that's a given!
The part of this conversation that sometimes comes up is the look of it, and the girlfriends' opinions... I can't believe that parents plan for their kids to have multiple partners. I, honestly, have a friend who encourages her teenage girls to enjoy sex because
"how else will they know if someone is 'the one'" -CRAZY!!! I cringe...
To me, this whole circumcision decision shouldn't be so controversial.
WOW. I am disgusted that they are using foreskin for profit .
We chose to because we work in the health care field. My husband was an oncology nurse for 10+ years and saw many cases of penile cancer. They say there is not a higher chance in uncircumcised boys as long as they use excellent hygiene. Come on now, we can't even get them to wipe their butt good enough to not make screech marks in their underwear. It is also VERY pain done at a later age when complications occur. To us it was not a choice but rather a medical decision.
My boys are all circumcised, for religious reasons. I come from a country though where only the Jewish and Muslim boys are circumcised without medical reasons, and I always thought that the mass "cosmetic" circumcising of boys was pointless and unreasonable.
Still, I tend not to, so to say, peak into other people's kids' diapers. I don't think it's a decision anyone needs to advertise and I very rarely express what I think about it. And when I do, I also point out that I don't agree with baby girls' ears being pierced.
And foreskin in cosmetics makes me gag.
With our 4 boys, our first son was circumcised and I don't even remember them asking me!
Our next 3 were all preemies. And guess what! For preemies, no circumcision. It is considered unnecessary surgery.
My extended family had a total fit.
My uncle even said if my kids died, they would go to hell. (no kidding)
2 of our sons remain uncircumcised and are happily married with zero problems.
The other one, was in teh care of my aunt when I was in the hospital for 6 weeks. He was a year old. My aunt believed he had to be cleaned extensively every time she changed his diaper, not understanding that to pull back on a baby's forskin can cause severe damage. Well, yep, she did. Our doctor had a FIT!
She caused him to tear slightly and bleed. Well, it never was right after that, and eventually at 8, he had to be circumcised.
I think this is the main reason that boys have issues. Because somebody wouldn't let nature be nature and leave it alone!
Our doctor explained that the foreskin is a natural protection on baby boys to keep them from getting infections.
So we have 2 that are, and 2 that aren't. Our grandsons, are not circumcised. My daughters in law see nothing wrong with an uncircumcised man.
For our son who was 8, it was a bigger deal that our newborn son, but not really too big a deal.
We had it done during the summer and he was up and running around in a few days.
I remember his little friend knocking on the door coming back from vacation. He yelled into the house to our son, "Hey, I just got back from vacation!" Our son said, "I just got back from being circumcised. " LOL
It IS a personal choice, A CHOICE BELONGING TO THE PERSON!! We recognized it is not our choice to remove a part of our son's body that he can never get back, and we are thankful it was not done to our son that was adopted. Of course we have to make medical decisions for our children, but there is no way it is medically necessary.
As for it hurting more when they are an adult, how on earth does anyone know? A newborn certainly can not tell you how much it hurts except for with their screams, which they do scream! Routine infant circumcision is absolutely barbaric. It is removing a piece of their body! A very sensitive piece! With at best a topical anesthetic, most times nothing. I can hardly stand to think about it. I had to sit outside the exam room at my OB's office while an infant was being circumcised and the screams made me ill. I think all parents wanting to circumcise should have to witness it being done to their child. It's so neat and convenient when they wisk them off to the nursery to torture them while the parents wait comfortably in their hospital room. Disgusting.
As for penile cancer? Are you kidding me? It's less than 1% of all cancers last I knew. We don't go around removing young girl's breast buds because they might get breast cancer! Absolutely absurd.
Honestly the whole thing shocks me. blech.
Our son is circumcised and here are some of our reasons for doing it. I am a nurse and have taken care of both adults and newborns after circumcision. Babies definitely heal quicker and do better following this surgery. If you have it as an adult, you are most likely already in pain because of whatever reason it is needed. You will need time off work plus there is the embarrassment that men feel when having to say what is going on, or having Dr's and nurses check out that particular area. I can tell you that the adults I have taken care of are painful for over a week and need dressings changed about that long or more. I know babies can't speak but they are pretty good at letting us know if they are uncomfortable, and they appear to be pretty close to normal the next day.
Now I work in a nursing home and can tell you that the part of the other blog post that said the foreskin is self cleaning, like an eyelid is certainly not true in the geriatric population.We have to be very careful with our uncircumcised men, because if the foreskin isn't pulled back and cleansed infections can develop. Often as a man ages, it becomes more difficult to retract the foreskin, which is why older men need a circumcision at times.
I guess that's the end of my long response. It does seem to be something that people feel strongly about, but in the end it's a personal decision.
I`m of the school of thought that if we´re born with something, chances are it´s there for a reason! It´s the reason I refused to have my tonsils out (cutting out part of your immune system when it is reacting to an infection seemed absurd to me) and the reason neither of my sons is circumcised.
That being said, I do understand that there are reasons to do things like this. For example, several people mentioned here that problems run in the family, so it might be wise to think about it. I`m very glad, though, to live in a country where doctors would think you very odd and cruel if you asked to have your baby circumcised at birth!
As for the whole area of penile cancer . . . North America is pretty much the only area of the world where this procedure is done as a commonplace practice, to my knowledge, and you don´t hear about other countries dying off of this type of cancer left, right and center, so I`m not too worried. :)
None of my boys are circumcised. The Russian boys because it is not done there, my bio boy (now man) because he was so critically ill when he was born that it was absurd to think about something so mundane. And when he was better, we definitely did not want to put him through anything else! He never had an issue. Maxim expressed some desire to be circumcised so as to be like "everyone else". The physician we saw was quite opposed saying that it was in his best interests NOT to have it done and to mention he was not circumcised himself. That little fact made it difficult for Maxim to argue!
our haitian son came home at age 7, so he isn't. we then adopted a newborn from arkansas, and the birth mom insisted it be done, even though we really didnt want it done. maybe its a southern thing. shes so sweet and laid back, i was shocked that it was so important to her, but it was. my 18 year old (bio) son had it done because my first husband was circ'ed, and i was 20 then(stupid LOL). but my 2nd husband isnt and we didnt want the boys we had/adopted to be. so we have a mixed group here too. personally, i think its mean. it just is. pointless and mean.
I think parents should be able to choose whether or not to circumcise their sons without fear of censure or ridicule.
My brother wasn't circumcised as a baby, but had to undergo the painful and embarrassing procedure when he was 9 years old. This was because of a medical problem where his foreskin was unable to be retracted. I know two other men who needed to be circumcised before puberty for the same reason. The condition was entirely physiological and not caused by 'human error'.
My brother wishes he had been circumcised as a baby. My child is a girl, so I haven't had to make this decision, though if I had a son, I would want to spare him the invasive doctor's visits and procedure that my brother endured.
My children, when I have them, will always be circumcised for religious reasons. People of my faith have died for that right, and ultimately our bodies belong to God, not us, anyway.
That being said, I don't fully understand doing it fo rother than religious reasons.
I will speak as the lone male poster on this blog. I really get tired of mothers making this decision and acting like they are doing it exclusively for their sons benefit. I can still remember one boy at summer camp, adopted none the less, who was tormented in the showers because he wasnt circumsized. I also know a boy who would not play highschool ball because he knew he would be ragged. When you do something outside of the norm, which in our country is circumsision, certain people(especially teenage boys) will make you pay for it. I let some of my buddies read the comments to this post and they all agreed with me. You wont be in the lockeroom with your son at school or camp. You wont be there when he is lined up with no clothes in some strange fraternity hazing and ridiculed for the state of his body(you ladies won't understand that one). I think mothers have a great responsibility to provide for their sons and develop them into young men. But on this one I think you couldnt possibly understand the potential for emotional harm. To me its like a dad deciding whether or not his teenage daughter should start wearing a bra. He couldn't possibly understand and neither could any of you. I am sure I will get some hateful responses, but what do I know. I am only a MAN who has witnessed what young boys can face. Not only girls worry about their bodies. Read Frank Peretti's book about his bullied childhood and pray about your decision. You make the decision but they have to live with it. And don't think your son is going to come home and tell his mom when he is embarrassed about his anatomy. He will deal with it alone. Peace.
I have one with and one without. the doctor at the time begged us NOT to do it. but his father insisted and I went along because that was who I was then. that is NOT who I am now! the one who isnt wasnt when he arrived and we didnt feel it was necessary to change that. attitudes are changing about so many things. but since my husband is a doctor and really didnt see it as a necessary procedure and we wouldnt have it done for any birth child we had we wouldnt do it to this one either. its a pretty private and emotional decision for families. but the idea of using foreskins in cosmetics makes me sick. I only read the first sentence of the article. I couldnt read any further.
Anonymous - I think the difference is that doctors are, for the most part, discouraging circumcision these days...so it may well be that in the near future, it will be the circumcised boy who is the one "made fun of". My son said he was in the minority, but not by any means the only one uncircumcised. I think times are changing. When his son was born a year and a half ago, I coincidentally was in the hospital room when the nurse came in to address the issue. She really did not much option FOR doing it, apart from religious reasons, and my son was all for leaving him "in tact". So they did.
Annie-My wife is a pediatrician in Birmingham, AL and she laughed at your statement that doctors are often discouraging circumcision. She has not worked with one single doctor that went out of his way to discourage circumcision. We are talking about a teaching hospital ranking highly in US News and World Report for Peds so I would think that they would keep up with the trends. But to reinforce my point; I am not arguing this as my wife would. To her it is medical and to me it is personal. I remember the open shower stalls and that nobody would get in line behind that boy. It was sad but I was ten years old and only egged on the situation. Everyday one of the camp counselors would make people stay in his line. Am I being overly dramatic? I hope not. I am not trying to shame anyone either. I am just stating that some people are reading too deep into the harm of circumcision. I will put your mind at ease and tell you that although I am young, I do not remember getting circumcized! It did not hurt my feelings and I hold no grudge to my mother. My wife has performed more circumcisions than she can count and there was only one that went wrong. But considering that the skin was completely closed, they really had no choice. As a father I could never understand why my girl will want to shave her legs in junior high or wear a bra when she is still flat as a board. But I will let her do these things because they are harmless and she wont be ostricized. There will be no medical reason to let her, but they don't violate my morals so I have no problem. Just consider doing the same for your sons. If I adopt a twelve year old boy that isnt circumcized I will leave the choice to him and show him the pros and cons. No biggie. That is fine. But as far as a newborn I just think the pros outweigh the cons. I am really not trying to be a jerk though. keep up the good work moms. Your job is so important yet so thankless!
Coming from a European country, I was in DISBELIEF when I found out how many BABY boys have to go trough so much pain just because everybody else is doing it. In my home country(Denmark a very civilized, modern and free country)you do NOT circumcise(?Spelling)baby boys unless there is something wrong!! Why don't you take the pinkies as well- they have no purpose, but the foreskin does!!!
Thank you for letting me peek in to your life and enjoy the weekend
Susanne
Dutch mama here. Would not have circumcized had they been born in my home country, did not do it here. I have 5 sons.
I don't think men are the only ones ridiculed for the looks of body parts when in high school. Plenty of girls get made fun of for the size of their breasts, their weight, a big nose...name it. Plenty of ridicule going around for guys who were circumcized, just for other reasons.
It always surprises me when I read that so many boys are circumcised. Religious reasons aside, it's definitely not something which is routine here in England. I don't think the rate of serious penile infections is that much higher than in the US, although I'll be honest and admit I haven't done the research (there are things you just don't want to google)!
I don't agree with everything you believe in as posted in your November blog. But wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed on everything? And wouldn't life be boring if we all thought exactly the same way?
I love my God and you love yours and since we are both Christians that's probably the same God! And He's so much bigger than the rest of us that I'm pretty sure we all see slightly different aspects of Him - certainly He seems to call many of us to dramatically different things. I don't think it matters actually what the differences are, not in a "who's right" kind of a way - what matters is that, if God tells me to do something, I do it - and if He tells you to do something else, you do it. We are followers - discussing the differences is interesting but ultimately respecting the calling (and the Caller) is essential.
Tia
The rates are almost 50/50 now, that was not the case when you were young Anon. so though I understand your opinion, I think it's outdated. I agree with the poster that it may be that some day the circ'd child is rediculed. (Which I don't wish on any child.) But things are changing.
Pearly1979, my wife is getting mad at me because I keep posting. The rate is actually 73/27 in america and changes when certain racial/culture groups are accounted for. I am 30 years old so it wasnt eight years ago that I was using communal showers in college and it wasnt fifteen years ago that was still going to camp. I was later a counselor at the camp, as late as six years ago, and I can assure you that it is still not the norm(unless the uncirc boys are hiding from the showers). My opinion is based on my personal experience and my wifes in based on medical science and pediatric review. The trend has not significantly changed, only slightly due to immigration patterns. A child who is now circumcized will not be ridiculed in the states because that is the norm so I don't think Annies point really applies. And to Dutch Mama, I am not saying girls dont get ridiculed. That is common knowledge. We have books, seminars, websites, support groups etc. addressing their self esteem and body acceptance issues. How wonderful! We dont have the same for boys. That was my point. If your daughters breasts looked different that 95% of their peers and they were ridiculed for it you would probably grieve for her. Thats probably how the uncircumcized boy in the shower or on the football team can feel. The "barbaric" practice is thousands of years old and if it was so barbaric or emotionally detrimental than God probably would have intervened when His son was circumcized. I appreciate everyone letting me give my opinion as a male(though I dont claim to speak for all of us). And I am really not trying to be a jerk.
Wow...great post and great comments. They are really making me think. We have one daughter so we haven't had to make this decision yet--honestly, I will be relieved if we don't have a son because the thought of circumcision and hurting the baby makes me feel sick, but the thought of him having to get it done later and wishing it had been done earlier also is bad! I know this is really not a comparison, but when I was young I cried to my parents, "Why didn't you get my ears pierced when I was a baby?!?"
To anonymous male:
http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1244310607/ref=sr_pg_2?ie=UTF8&rs=1000&keywords=self%20help%20for%20men&rh=n%3A%211000%2Ci%3Astripbooks%2Ck%3Aself%20help%20for%20men&page=2
This is a link to a very very long list of self esteem help and an array of other self help/support books for men. I found 22,000 PLUS results for boys, body acceptance and self esteem etc etc.
As far as your comment there are no groups for boys....I did a quck search online and found this:
http://www.211sandiego.org/SearchDetails.aspx?ServiceSiteKey=26407
It is a group for teenage boys to talk about self esteem issues, depression etc etc.
I was a foster mom to troubled teens for 8 years and trust me on this, there are groups for boys as as well as for girls.We were given a list of access numbers for these when we took in teens. The trouble is that many boys and men just do not prefer a group setting for talking about feelings and often it is a less effective situation for them for processing.
But the opportunities really are there for them also, would they desire that.
http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/
It varies greatly by region but if you look at the "all regions combined" number it is approaching 50/50. The trend is towards less circumcision and I believe it will continue.
I think circumsised penis are much more 'attractive' (if I dare use that word to describe a penis!)
I doubt you would ever come across a boy or grown man who says he wishes he wasn't circumsised.
Are you freaking kidding me!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!
"I doubt you would ever come across a boy or grown man who says he wishes he wasn't circumsised."
A simple google of "foreskin restoration" will tell you otherwise.
http://www.norm.org/
Stop listening to so and so, who was a nurse, blah blah blah, and do some research!!!
I would argue that I doubt there are many men who don't feel they are missing out when they learn they've lost as much of an inch in length to their circ and approximately 10,000 nerve endings. Of course most men don't find this out. The ignorance on this thread is pathetic.
I realize that men who are circumcised are insecure about the idea that they are missing som thing (at the very least their foreskin) and need to normalize and continue the ritual to make themselves feel good about themselves. It has to be hard to admit that maybe there is something wrong or different about you, being that you are the one who has been changed, not the intact boys. You have been altered. It's hard to admit that your parents might have made a mistake. It's hard to admit sex could be better, hard to admit you could bring your wife more pleasure when that opportunity was taken from you. It is a hard pill to swallow. So I understand the need to perpetuate the out-dated practices that altered you. Hey if everyone is doing it it must be ok!!! Anyone wanna jump off a bridge?
I was not the anonymous that posted the last comment; but I am pretty sure that Pearly1979 needs to chill out. Why do you care if a man wants to circumsize his son. You think you are so creative with you argument but it sounds so childish. I am not even sure why we are posting about this. I am sure your sons would not appreciate it. What if you husband was blogging about your daughters private. Not cool.
I care because I think a lot of people circumcise out of ignorance, because it does not even occur to them that maybe they shouldn't, or maybe they should at least look at the facts. They just do it. I have very close friends that did just that, and then later learned more about it, and have serious regrets. It scares me that it could have been me. I was one of those people and fortunately I became educated on the subject before I had a son and I didn't just make the decision based on what I thought every one else was doing. I was glad some one spoke up. I was glad some one educated me. I made the decision based on what I learned and have read, when for a long time I had no idea there was anything to learn! I have a great friend who circumcised her first son and has not had the procedure done to the next three. She will carry that guilt her whole life. If one person reads this thread and is given pause to think and do some research then it is worth it to me. Maybe they will still decide to circumcise, but at least they will do so informed and not just because they think "every one else is doing it."
If no one talks about it nothing will change. I am of the belief that things should change and I am glad that they are starting to, but people need to talk about it for that to continue. It is something I am passionate about, and these little babies can't speak for themselves. It is their bodies and I'll say again it IS a personal choice, a choice that belongs to the person. Babies and children are people too.
I mean honestly, Anon's argument finally widdled down to he thinks it looks better and he doesn't think there is anyone who wishes he wasn't circumcised. (Which is absolutely not true.) I think that is a pretty weak argument, and I have no issue saying so.
I see circumcision as doing damage or harm. I do. That is why I care if a man circumcises his son, just like I would care if he were beating him, or neglecting him, or not educating him, or any of the other things that people regularly get involved in when it comes to what people do with their children. If a person is of the belief that circumcision does harm, it only makes sense that they would care, and that is how I feel.
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